BETWEEN OUR
LEGS LIVES
CHAOS
The Ljilja is a visual artist born in Croatia. Her raw and deeply considered work ranges from installations and paintings to photography and performance, it is a search for the selfless, content and Ego free body.
BP: Hello The Ljilja, there’s so much we could talk about. Seriously, where should we start with this interview? How about a simple one? What makes an artwork erotic?
TL: If only it were easy to define Erotic Art. For Peter Webb, editor of The Erotic Arts it’s art with a sexual theme that’s related specifically to emotions not actions, and where sexual depictions are justifiable on aesthetic grounds. His definition is an etymological one, based on the Greek eros meaning love or passion.
For Jerrold Levinson, author of the essay “Erotic Art and Pornographic Pictures” it’s art which aims to engage viewers sexually through explicit sexual content (and that succeeds to some extent in doing so).
So already, considering only two definitions, we have a divergence. Can we at least agree that erotic art doesn’t necessarily need to be explicit?
All erotic art has a sexual theme, but not all art with a sexual theme is erotic. For Levinson the aims of pornography and the aims of art, erotic art included, are not compatible, they’re at war with each other. One induces you - the viewer - in terms of arousal and release (porn), the other induces you in the name of aesthetic delight (art). So he separates erotic art from pornography by what kind of response it calls for in the viewer.
Gloria Steinem draws a much clearer difference in her essay “Erotica and Pornography: A Clear and Present Difference”, she wrote: “Look at any photo or film of people making love, really making love. …there is usually sensuality and touch and warmth, an acceptance of bodies and nerve endings. …Now look at any depiction of sex in which there is clear force, or an unequal power that spells coercion. …The first is erotic: a mutually pleasurable, sexual expression between people who have enough power to be there by positive choice. The second is pornographic: its message is violence, dominance, and conquest.” Steinem, from her particular feminist point of view, shows us that we can’t ignore the problems of objectification, and exploitation when we try to define erotic art.
Personally, I think there are two different points of view, or two different conceptual positions in erotic art: the male gaze and the female gaze, and they do differ. As a female artist my gaze calls for an awakening of sleeping goddesses, an anasyrma-esque call, a glimpse of Eurynome who rose naked from Chaos and by dancing set creation in motion.
Okay, let’s zoom out for a moment. What is the erotic? And how does it relate to art in a broader sense, not just in relation to classifying an artwork?
In her essay “Uses of the Erotic” Audre Lorde wrote: “The erotic is a resource within each of us that lies in a deeply female and spiritual plane, firmly rooted in the power of our unexpressed or unrecognized feeling. In order to perpetuate itself, every oppression must corrupt or distort those various sources of power within the culture of the oppressed that can provide energy for change.”
The erotic is that primal, feminine energy, Shakti power, the source of the dharma. In Tantric scripture it is universal cosmic energy symbolised by the yoni, the female organ engulfing the lingam. The yoni represents that energy which gives birth to the world, the womb of everything manifested.
This erotic, feminine power has been present in Art since its beginning. From cave drawings, Venus figurines, vulva stone carvings to Sheela na Gigs and so on.
Burn Down to Ashes and Rise Again and Again, Self-portrait, 2021
In the Beginning there was Female, Self-portrait, 2021
Sacred Garden, Self-portrait, 2021
She Speaks Between Her Legs, Self-portrait, 2021
Your work is erotic, raw, explicit. How have you found navigating the art world as an artist that makes sexy art?
The art world is one big market place, a reflection of our capitalist society. And just like that society it has trends and rules. I prefer being on the outskirts of the art world and doing what I love, making the invisible visible and free from those trends and rules.
It’s difficult now because rather than being worshiped and feared, female blood and flesh is objectified. At other times, in other cultures sexual energy was a healing energy, and sexuality was honoured and considered something sacred.
Historically, many villages in Ireland (where I am now based) had a local female healer. When someone had an “evil eye” cast on them they would go to that female healer. She would lift her skirt and show her vulva like Sheela na Gig, and by looking at her vulva the evil spell will be cast off. This is an example of the incredible power of femme sexual energy, that such practices should exist.
My work is deeply rooted in sexual energy and it’s healing and restorative power. I knew when I decided to follow the path of primal, feminine, restorative energy that it would be a challenging journey, but the reward is priceless. I have grown inwardly, I am still growing. I can say that my path chose me, and I am glad I was humble enough to respond to it.
Talk to us about the role of desire or fantasy in alternative world creation.
This is such a Lacan-esque question to be honest.
[Ha! I feel like you’re doing a read on my questions but you’re right, it really is. Ed x]
From the moment we are born we gradually enter the duality between Self and Other. Our response to that fundamental differentiation is constituted by the workings of desire and fantasy.
As babies and toddlers we exist in the reality of “sameness” with the world around us. As we grow and develop we learn difference and how to evolve, how to navigate our Inner and External world. We learn how to construct the Self through an active separation from that which is Other.
As a result of that separation we contain a “lack” or “void” within us. For Lacan that “lack” constitutes human desire. For him “Man’s desire is a desire for Other”. And this is where fantasy enters the frame. Through fantasy we are able to merge the Self and the Other. Fantasy is at the very core of subjectivity. Through fantasy one can fight the oppression which social reality brings upon us.
Different social and cultural effects on our lives can bring us into the “intermediary zone” between the Imaginary and Symbolic Orders of being. In this Zone desire and fantasy are pulled apart. That’s when art and creative expression can help us find that primordial, healthy separation of internal and external world (Self and Other).
As a female artist my artistic expression is the arena where I am able to reconstruct a raw, feminine energy which has been socially and culturally suppressed and oppressed for eons. An arena where I can call forth the ending of sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. But also, a place where I can educate young ones on how to awaken that Primal, restorative, feminine energy.
Your body seems so central to your art. How much of your work is about the body and how much of it is beyond the body?
As a ritual artist I use my body as a healing tool by performing transformative public rituals that explore the outer boundaries of the pain which my body can endure. I can say that my work is beyond the body precisely because I use my body to communicate and bring collective healing.
Carl Jung wrote that the thing people are most afraid of is not so much the soul (which for them is practically non-existent), but the body, that is what they don’t want to see. The body is the animal or evil spirit waiting to say something to them when they are alone. The body is the darkness and a very dangerous thing to be called up. He believed that darkness (through opacity of myth) manifests in the life (of the body) as fate when it is not acknowledged and allowed to transform.
By shifting spaces and bodily forms while relating to others and other worlds, I use my own body as an awakening instrument. I truly believe that when one’s body is put in a state where Ego is no longer central, but instead acts as a bridge, one can start the process of healing. By exhausting my body, I can reach a state of trance where I am connected with my ancestral spirits and all the Earthlings. I can cast light on what needs to be set free.
Healing needs to happen not only on the individual level, but also at the level of society. I believe everything is connected. Medication is not enough for us to heal. Our human health is connected to the social environment too.
Contemporary society pushes individualism while individuals are suffering. In Nature everything is connected. Individualism coaxes us into acting like we are not connected with the world around us. But we do have the capacity, not only to heal ourselves but our planet too. The One contains the Many, and the Many contains the One. Without the One there is not the Many, and without the Many there is no One. You can't separate the individual from the environment.
Hælþ is Anglo-Saxon word and it means whole. Healing means becoming whole again. Fundamentally trauma is disconnection from yourself, from your whole self. We live in a culture that seduces us from our true, whole self through artificial means. We don't need new flashy things, medications for our hurting inner self. It is Love that we need. Firstly, healthy self-love which will spread into acceptance of our inner and outer life, and then love that will spread toward others.
Talk to us about online censorship. What effects does it have on us? What does it suppress? What does it perpetuate?
Sexuality, death, fetish and religion are deeply rooted within my art practice, they are also an important part of our human history. Let’s consider social media censorship in light of some quotes from the book “The Female Nude in Photography” by Lacey and La Ratonda – “the female nude – magical, erotic, aesthetic has been modelled and painted since prehistory. Appearing rarely and awkwardly in the earliest art, she attained fulfilment and glory in Ancient Greece. In their idealized treatment of the nude the Greeks established standards that only ascetics of the Middle Age ignored. The artist in Renaissance and their successors of the 18 and 19 centuries revived the nude and by the 1930’s she was again a conventional form. It was inevitable that she should become a favourite subject of photography.”
The female nude was and still is such an important part of art history. It is ironic that in society where sex sells everything the nude as an art form is still so challenging. I am fascinated by why some people equate nudity with pornography. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
In ancient mythology our cunts had teeth, between our legs were Chaos, Cosmos, Death, Rebirth, Annihilation. The naked female body was worshiped, respected, feared, now it is covered with shame, condemned as sinful, objectified. Women used to be goddesses, priestesses and femme sexual energy was considered something sacred. Look at us now, we are barely a shadow of our ancestral heritage. We need to go back to our roots, and awaken that goddess within us, stop shaming her beauty and power.
Meeting the Shadow Ritual, 2023, Photo by Julia @imzwischen
Padme hum om mani, Self-portrait, 2021
Rebirthing Ritual, 2023, Photo by Juliette Rowlan
Collective Trauma Healing Ritual, 2022
Thank you The Ljilja.
The Ljilja is a visual artist born in Croatia. Her work ranges from installations and paintings to photography and performance. Making her debut in 2006, she has exhibited and performed internationally, including shows at Rua Red, Dublin (2023), Alte Münze, Berlin (2022); Mart Gallery, Dublin (2022); Ebensperger Gallery, Berlin (2021); Lethal Amounts Gallery, LA (2019); Body Art Ritual Festival, Berlin (2019); and Reykjavik International Film Festival, Reykjavik (2018).
In her work the Ljilja is in a constant search for the selfless, content and Ego free body. A body which is “breaking down areas hardened by the perspective of the Ego.” Her work can be described as a transformation through creativity, connecting all over with her primal “I”.
“As an artist my main aim is making the subconscious conscious and bringing it into the light. We live in an era where most of us are showing the best part of ourselves, the most beautiful parts (a wonderful Kingdom of Selfies). I am showing those hidden, dark, disturbing parts. By covering my face and hiding my identity, I become no one; and by becoming no one, I have become everyone. By disfiguring my face, covering my eyes I am allowing my Primordial Self to step out from the darkness. I am reconnecting all over again with my true Self.”